SPEAKER_03: 0:25

Yeah. Welcome back to the Make the Most of Your Money podcast. Uh I'm your host, Colin Page, and here with my co-host, Taylor Stewart. Um how are you doing, Taylor? Lovely, man. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 0:37

Thanksgiving's over. We all had strep, so we're feeling good now.

SPEAKER_03: 0:41

Oh, bummer. Um, I won't tell you where we went for Thanksgiving. Yes. I already know. Um, yeah. Um anyways, today um we've got a we've got a special guest, um, a good friend of mine. Um, and uh, but before I introduce him, I just want to tell like a little bit background and why why we wanted to have him on. So, you know, we we talk in this podcast about the the technical, behavioral, and spiritual elements of making the most of your money. And a lot of the time we focus on those first two um uh the technical and the behavioral things. Um But today I think we're gonna focus a little more on the last one, the spiritual elements, and and not spiritual necessarily in a in a Christian framework, but spiritual in terms of you know what money reveals about our inner life and how we find meaning and purpose and um you know going beyond spreadsheets. Um so today we are joined by uh pastor, friend, um, the author of Cross Street uh Substack, um a uh the Reverend Josh Bascom. Um so welcome, Josh.

SPEAKER_01: 1:52

Thanks for having me, guys. Colin. Uh known Colin for a long time. Um one of the smarter, kinder guys that I know. Taylor, um, I'm not so sure about you yet.

SPEAKER_00: 2:04

It's true. It's been a good 18 minutes we've known each other, though.

SPEAKER_03: 2:07

We're gonna we're gonna get there. So Josh, you know, um yeah, we we go back a ways, but um, you know, what one of the the I've really been enjoying your your your substack, um your new substack called Cross Street uh notes from the intersection of faith and work, um, where you write, you know, a lot about kind of the limits of self-help um and our you know need for help outside ourselves and uh kind of the human condition. And and we've bonded over, you know, a shared appreciation of of Morgan Housel. And so I've just been, you know, we've had a lot of conversations in the past about you know money and meaning. And I'm just excited to to have you meet Taylor and for us to record record a conversation. Yeah. Um benefit from it too. Yeah, I don't know. Um, we'll start out. Is there anything you you'd like to say, Josh, just kind of off the bat about your background or or kind of where you come from?

SPEAKER_01: 3:11

Um well, I'm an Episcopal minister here in Charlottesville, Virginia. Um I don't I don't have too much to say about myself. I'm I'm I'm a I'm a I'm a husband, father of three. Um I think an interesting, I just thought of this a few minutes ago. I was thinking about um how it's interesting that we are here on this podcast today. Um, a minister talking with some wealth management guys, because I remember a number of years ago when Colin was in a bit of a transition of thinking about what he was going to do next before he went into wealth management. I remember getting, I don't know if we got coffee or pizza, lunch somewhere, and we were just chatting. And I remember thinking to myself, and I think sharing with you that I was like, Colin, I think you'd make a really good minister. And I say that because Colin is he's a really great listener. He is a very thoughtful person who's able to listen to not just the the facts of your life, but what's actually going on uh in your life, and by that I mean like reading between the lines and and um like asking thought-provoking follow-up questions because he actually cares about the person he's listening to. And um, Colin's also like a really smart guy who knows uh scripture and philosophy and culture really well. And I was just like, gosh, you'd be great at this, man. And then a year or so later, you told me you were gonna go into wealth management. And I thought to myself, man, I think that's a really, really great fit because I see the work that you all do as real ministry. I mean, gosh, when um there are only a few places where, or I should rephrase that. I would say there are few, and perhaps not really many, if any, other places in our lives where the rubber really hits the road more uh when it comes to anxiety, when it comes to identity, um, than when it comes to our money. And uh what do you lose sleep over more than anything? Um money is near the top of that list. Um, and so I find myself talking about money in my office with people all the time, mostly in a very indirect way, but it's there. And um, and so I see the work that you guys are doing is a real, real ministry, listening to people. Um, what are your what are your real hopes and dreams? What are your real anxieties? Um I'm guessing it's not just to get a number in a bank account. I'm guessing the the anxieties and the hopes uh are are go deeper than that. So um I think it's a it's wonderful for us to be talking today.

SPEAKER_03: 6:01

Yeah. Um yeah, no question. I mean, I I I see so much overlap um between, you know, I I've always said between being a wealth manager or being a therapist and and and being a pastor or a counselor is is kind of very similar role and in that and a very privileged position to get to to kind of get at what's behind the the surface level or the facade and and and try to understand people's hopes and dreams, as you said, and fears and anxieties also. Yeah. Money's a real interesting like avenue into that kind of inner life.

SPEAKER_01: 6:39

I mean, you I I I think it's really profound you're using the word privilege there, because um money really is like in our relationship with it. It it says so much about who we think we are, what our purpose is, uh, and like and yet we hold we we we shield so much of that from so many people. I mean, we don't talk about how much money we make, uh, we don't talk about how we do our investments unless you're like really talking with a select few people. That's pretty private information in a lot of circles. Um and so to be, I mean, someone's really letting you look under the hood. They're lifting up their skirt and showing you like what's why do you what's why do you think that is?

SPEAKER_00: 7:22

I I've I've had I've long had this saying, I used to teach a class, and this might be a little crude, but I used I'm not I'm not I used to do this. I would I would ask somebody in the audience, did you have sex last night? And ha ha ha. And they'd sometimes answer. And then I said, How much money is in your bank account?

SPEAKER_01: 7:39

Yeah, no one no one's gonna answer.

SPEAKER_00: 7:41

No one will talk about it. And I just think that's fascinating. Like this why is it that people are so uncomfortable talking about money, do you think?

SPEAKER_01: 7:47

I mean, I I I would be curious to know if this is uh this is a true statement in all cultures, or if it's more so an American thing, if it's more a um, I mean, is it a is it an East Coast thing? I I don't know. I mean, uh, and I'm I'm a little bit of a uh a um small town guy who uh can only kind of speak to what I know here in Charlottesville, but I know that that's absolutely true. Um particularly with with younger people. I I spent a lot of time working with UVA students and um and they are, I mean, they're they're grades, but even even by the time they're a sophomore in college, it seems like, um, or a second year, as they call them, at UVA, um, like their internship and then their job is such a huge part of their identity. And they will talk about it, um, but they won't talk about compensation. Um, they won't talk about like some specifics are fair game and others are not. And um I don't know if it's this awareness that it's like in poor taste. Um there seems to be some understanding that like um like even really wealthy people, they'll say things like money can't buy you happiness. And that's just sort of like what we're supposed to there's this like collective social understanding that that's the truth. And so if that's the truth, then we're not gonna talk about it because it's either in poor taste or like I feel a little bit guilty that I am looking for happiness as much as I am in my bank account. Um it's really interesting to unpack that. Like, can money buy you happiness? Maybe it can, maybe it can in some ways more than others. Um I don't know. Uh Colin, do you have an idea of why people don't like sharing their their bank accounts? Their investment strategies?

SPEAKER_03: 9:48

Um I mean I yeah, I think it's it's not so much about like the number is this big secret. It's it's like what that what we think it says about us. Um and what's interesting is like while we may have we may not want to share that number, we have no qualms, you know, displaying our wealth in other in other ways. You know, whether it's the car you drive, the house you own, the school you send your kids to, or the the you know, the vacation you took um and the pictures you posted on Instagram. Um there there are all sorts of other ways to demonstrate, like, hey, I've I've made it uh than than just knowing the number. And so yeah, it's uh it's that's a weird dynamic where like it's so taboo to talk about, you know, here's here's how much I actually have that kind of inner, you know, secret and and what we dis how we choose to display it. And I think it gets a lot to like, I mean, more uh is it Morgan House that makes the and I'm sure he's not the first, but like the the distinction between being rich and being wealthy and being rich is is like what you um is is the things you can buy or consume or or um you know, the trips you take, the car you drive, the the country club you belong to, you know, that that requires like a constant flow of of money. And being wealthy is more um, you know, not so much about the the expense, but but that you can sustain, but but the you know, the the total amount in your balance sheet, you know, the total amount of assets you've accumulated. And it's it's interesting, like those two don't always like match one another. You know, you could you can have people who are driving a real fancy car whose bank account does not look like that. Uh you know. Um but yet all we get to see is like the outside. Um we only get to see the trappings of of riches or or wealth or money, um, not the inner.

SPEAKER_01: 11:56

I think there I think it it's one of those w it's one of those just unknowns. And there's so many different potential answers, but one of them that just crossed my mind is like, I mean, you guys know this infinitely more than I do, but the like the the typical state of personal finances in of someone's in the United States is like it looks pretty bad when you look underneath the hood. And despite the fact that they are driving like a Range Rover or a new suburban. And so maybe it's the fact that people are like, if we all kind of showed you what's really going on, like it wouldn't look very good for most of us.

SPEAKER_00: 12:29

I I think something I was thinking about, I think it's interesting. I think it goes both ways. Um, I know plenty of wealthy people that wouldn't want people to know how wealthy they are. Yeah. Because there's a fear of how people would treat them then. And people who try to signal that they're wealthy who don't want you to know that they're actually not. And I just that that's there's I think some of that's um well-intentioned that like you just aren't sure how other people are going to react. So let's just not make that a known data data point about yourself. Um, that's that's fascinating though.

SPEAKER_01: 12:56

Like uh there's remember, I think it was um, I mean, the the fact that it's a tab a taboo. Um you guys familiar with Scott Galloway? He's a, in my opinion, a more uh douchey version of Morgan Housel. Um I think he says a lot of good stuff, but he's just like, all right, man, you need to take yourself a tenth as seriously as you do. Uh, which in fact, like, that's almost entirely Morgan Housel's charm. I said he's so humble. Um but um he kind of pointed out one point, I don't know if it was in his book or in a podcast I listened to where he was sort of talking about how, uh, and this is maybe a little bit um either cynical or um, but he was saying, like, it there's something about the fact that we don't talk about how we make money, um, kind of is like the one of these like gatekeepers between the wealthy and the poor. Um, the fact that like we don't talk about there's so many, there's so many people who don't talk about their wealth in public. And as a result of that, or even in like common conversations among friends. And if you think about that, you go a couple of generations of that, and you have people who have no idea, they don't even know what an index fund is because they've never heard anyone talk about it, because no one talks about anything other than the baseball game last night or the weather that's coming up this weekend. And that was an interesting observation that he was making that was like if we if we're looking for whatever political perspective you have, like you're looking for some sort of more equality with uh like income equality, maybe the first thing we need to do is just start talking about these things more. Because the fact of the matter is, like we, these are important things. And if if only the wealthy people are talking, or if no one's talking about um their finances publicly, then people who who didn't grow up in wealthy homes with dads and moms who were, you know, listening to Dave Ramsey on the way to school in the morning, then they don't know a thing about these things. I don't know. I'm curious I don't know what you guys think about that, but it's interesting observation.

SPEAKER_03: 15:08

Yeah. Um Yeah, I'm I'm I'm fascinated by you know, and this and this gets into into somewhat the this spiritual realm too, but like this we we tend to judge, you know, when w all we can do most of the time is judge what peop what we see um on the outside of someone and um whether that's you know the the trappings of wealth or or or um but we don't know what's going on on the inside or or maybe we think we know, um, but but I think what's so fascinating um is is how uh that where that breaks down, you know, the I the idea that we could know what's judge something from the outside and know what's going on on the inside. And then m Morgan Housel uses the anecdote um about when he was uh a valet driver in in Los Angeles or some, you know, some some fancy hotel or something and and the kinds of cars that he would he would get to drive to the lot and you know remembers thinking um you know the the the point of the the point of it being, you know, but if um what you see when you see somebody drive up in a Ferrari or whatever, what you think of that person is not, oh, what a great guy that must be, how successful he is. You think, oh, well, if I had a car like that, then I would feel successful and I would be the man, you know. And so we're we're comparing, we're we're not even thinking at all about um, you know, the driver of that car, but what it would be like if we were the driver and how that would then engender respect and admiration in other people of us. But his own observation, you know, completely dispels that notion because you're not even thinking about the driver in the car and how great he is. You're just thinking about what other people would think of you if you were in the car. And clearly they're not going to think about you either.

SPEAKER_01: 17:09

That's just you know it's it's it's such a perfect illustration and analogy of how I mean we and it gets to his bigger point of the fact that like one of his primary principles is the idea that like I've got some really good news for you. No one is thinking about you because they're just thinking about themselves. Like no one is thinking about you as much as you are thinking about yourself. And um, but then to see to play that out with a car analogy is a really, really powerful thing. Um, and it also the as you've set up that framework, Colin. I mean, thinking about how we compare the our insides to other people's outsides is this like there is this incredible curse that we seem to carry with us of like though our way of being in the world seems to be comparison. Like, comparison is the the way that we make sense of so much. And we always seem to be doing it in a slightly flawed way because we are comparing our insides uh to someone else's outsides. They might be like a very content person who's not interested in status, they just really like that car. You have no we have no idea what their relationship is to that car. Whereas we are thinking about it, I mean, or I shouldn't say we, let's say someone like myself, maybe, would be thinking about how like uh that car is gonna make me uh seem uh cool. That car is gonna make me seem worthy, that part that car is gonna make me lovable in the eyes of at least someone in this town. Um and that's what we're that's what we're getting at in just about every aspect of our life is trying to reach the state of we talk about status. Um and I think that makes sense in the world of finance when it comes to like status of like this neighborhood, this car. But really what we're all looking for is the status of lovability. Like all all we all we want is to be loved. Um, and it's an interesting thing how we go about comparing our insides of someone else's outsides. Our search, we we take our search for love and we uh enter it into this scenario where we're shopping for cars. And you think about it like that, it's just nonsense. But we're go we're I think we're all guilty of it uh in in one way or another.

SPEAKER_03: 19:38

Yeah, and and so you you in in your writings, I mean you've you've been focused a lot lately on the kind of self-help genre. Um and you know, the that that's I I think I think that's a fertile ground to kind of maybe talk about next, because you know, the if we've diagnosed the problem, if the problem is like this deeper human condition, whether you want to call that, you know, original sin or you know uh envy, greed, you know, that that sort of um framing of it, or whether you want to frame it as um Yeah, we just have a limited um ability to to like To do the things that we want to do and and and not do the things we don't want to do. You know, if if we look at this money as a lens into the human heart, you know, what do we do about it? And I think there are a lot of people uh you know, we could a lot many of us turn to find like purpose in in careers or in um, you know, bettering ourselves or or or whatnot. And and you have some unique thoughts and perspective on on kind of that, you know, where where are other places people go to find out this this um you know kind of what to do about it.

SPEAKER_01: 21:00

Gosh, well, I mean I I I do think self-help is um self-help is something that we are all engaged with, whether we're willing to admit it or not. I mean, like there's a there on the surface level, um, we all are on the surface level, like you can you can go to your local Barnes and Noble and you can see that there's a big self-help section there. And these are popular books. You go to coffee shops, a lot of those books um in the self-help section, they're the ones that are out on people's tables. If you're in an airplane, if you actually look at the facts and figures, self-help books sell really well in our country. Now, there's a whole lot of people who um I find I have conversations with people all the time where I just throw the word self-help out and they're like, oh, I know self-help is so bad, it's so dumb, it's so cheap, you know, on and on and on and on. And it's like, well, what what are some of your favorite books? And they'll be like, I'm really a big fan of like business leadership books. Or I really like reading about stoicism, or I really like reading about this philosophy that it might not be in the self-help section, but it is this idea that if I can read the right book, listen to the right podcast, get the right well like financial advisor, get the get the right advice, then I am going to be able to apply that to the problems of my life and solve my deepest problems. And and I think that the way that I see the world through my own personal experiences as a 38-year-old who's, you know, I've lived a little bit, um, I've I've I've suffered some, but I'm also a minister who's I I feel like I I I get I've gotten to witness a lot of life, even though I may not have lived a lot of life. And um, one thing that I've found is that the biggest problems in our lives, regardless of what they are, are way above our pay grade. We we we are not able to pull ourselves out of the drowning ditch by pulling ourselves up by the own hair, like the hair on the top of our heads. We we're in need of being rescued. And um, and so I think that these the self-help, the idea of self-reliance is really sexy. It's a very American, it's very masculine. The list goes on and on. But at the end of the day, I think when that becomes our ultimate hope for uh for peace and for purpose, um, then I think we're in trouble. And I think that um that is something that I would say is a is a specifically Christian perspective that I hold. But you don't have to be a Christian to realize, like, man, I go to bed at night and I look back on my day, and there's a lot of things that I wish I didn't do that I did. Um, there are a lot of things that I wish I did do that I didn't do. And it seems like my willpower isn't quite as strong as I would like it to be. Um, and if that's the case, then maybe if I'm the creator of my own problem, then maybe I shouldn't be the solution to that problem. And maybe I'm in need of a little bit of help from outside myself. So this idea of like self-reliance um and self-help is something that I've been wrestling with because I've seen it super popular, um, very, very prevalent everywhere. Um, and I've been spending a lot of time just sort of being really critical of it. And the reason that I started this Substack was because I'm wanting to really stop just saying that's dumb, you shouldn't read it. Like that's that's the last thing you should hear from your ministers that you're dumb. What I'd like what what what you should have is someone who's interested in like, tell me tell me why you're reading that book. Like, let's sit down and have a conversation about it. Because uh, because there seems to be some part of you that wants to improve. Um there seems to be something, some part of you that wants to improve, and I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I don't think there's anything wrong with that at all. Um, so let's have that conversation. And that's the kind of the conversation I'm trying to have on on the substack. Um being critical, but charitably so. Um it's hard to do when I'm finding myself reading Ryan Holiday books on stoicism because stoicism is just uh it's low-hanging fruit. Uh I don't know. What do you guys think about self-help when you hear that phrase?

SPEAKER_00: 25:45

I'm a big fan. Um I think I think the fact that self-help is such a massive genre just speaks to this desire, a lot of lost people and a lot of searching people. Yeah. Um, which is really what we're talking about. Like, just want to reiterate that technical, behavioral, spiritual framework. Like, it's like technical is like what to do, like invest in this fund, the the just the technical stuff. The behavioral is actually able to do it. That's kind of the willpower piece that you're talking about in a lot of ways. The spiritual is what are you putting it all towards? And that's the part that people miss. Like the technical part of money is so freaking easy. It's a textbook, AI can answer any of your questions. Behavioral, that's challenging. It's the spiritual piece that people aren't putting it towards the life that they actually want because they don't know what they actually want. They're searching. And so they read self-help books. And I think the answers are there. You just don't need 5,000 of them.

SPEAKER_01: 26:39

I think that's a really great framework, uh, Taylor. Uh one thing that I would say is um I think unfortunately, people are looking for the spiritual answer in the self-help section of the bookstore.

SPEAKER_02: 26:54

Sure.

SPEAKER_01: 26:54

I think that's an unfortunate thing because I think the self-help is actually much more about the like so much of it is for practice. Like you read Atomic Habits by James Clear, and it's just like these are the things that you need to do to be more organized and have better habits. And in fact, the to what end? That's the question that I think is such an important question. That's the question, like, what is the purpose of this? Particularly when it comes to money, particularly when it comes to finance, particularly when it comes to um discerning your careers. I spent a lot of time talking about that with with uh college students and also people our age who are trying to figure out should I stay in this career? Should I go in another career? Like, to what end are you working these 80-hour weeks? Um uh and unfortunately, so much self-help, the answer is just simply optimization. Like that's yep, what what to what end? Well, so I'm further optimized.

unknown: 27:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 27:56

Well, well, to to what end? So I'm even more optimized. Like there actually isn't an answer to that question.

SPEAKER_00: 28:03

I think uh this isn't totally related. I don't have a nice way to tie this in. I think the biggest issue with a lot of people and a lot of self-help is people are looking to eliminate suffering from their life. That's an impossible task. And the quicker you can learn to embrace uh suffering and learn how to suffer well, if you no longer seek help removing suffering, life gets a hell of a lot easier. And so much self-help is like learning how to like never feel stressed, always be happy, optimize this and that. That's the wrong kind of self-help to me. So that's where I'm saying, like the answers are in there. Just for me, at least for me, and like what I view, like the right, like the version of self-help, I could do give it to you in five books, five frameworks for what I think how you need to live your life. But like, that's where I think it's that desire to remove suffering at all times um that puts people on this just it's a journey complete.

SPEAKER_01: 28:58

I think that's I think that's a huge part of it. I think another big part of it is that the problem um is so often is so much bigger than we actually think. Um and what I mean what I mean by that is that like there the problem of pride, for example, or the problem of I mean you the list could go on and on, but like the the problem I do what I I really do mean it when I say the problem is us in many ways. Like we can't you might have the right, the five right self-help books with the five right frameworks, but what does that does that at the end of the day actually make it possible for you to, as the stoic would say, simply uh meditate on what's in your control and what's not in your control? Like not in my experience. My experience is that there's so much less in my control than I actually think there is. And when it comes to uh so many of these things, the the the problem is one in which I'm in need of rescue from outside myself. Um, and that's where like you think about you these relationships, you think about your relationships. Like you you get in a in a in an argument with your wife. Um, you find yourself that you've messed up. Um like you're you can't optimize your way out of having screwed up something with your wife or screwed up something with your kids. You can't take, you can't willpower your way out of the fact that you have loved her imperfectly. What you are in need of is someone who knows the truth about what has gone on, knows the truth about you, uh what you've done or what you haven't done, and is able to look at you and say, uh I love you and I forgive you. Like that's the only hope for that for that scenario. There's not really much you can do other than confess. Um, and I think that's that's a little bit of an analogy there of like the the hope's gonna come from outside of ourselves. Um, we're we're playing very little, we're participating fairly little uh when it comes to some of these things. But that this is where I'm finding it like sometimes we over-theologize a lot of these things and we get to the place where it's like, I don't have any willpower. My only hope is coming from outside myself, therefore burn all the self-help books. Uh let's roll our eyes at any desire to improve in our lives and just like say Jesus a couple of times and get on with the day. And it's like, well, that's not very satisfying either. Um, because at the end of the day, like I do want to find out what are the things that can make me a better husband? What are the things that can make me a better father? What are what, if anything, are there like the the areas of that I maybe do have some control over in my life? But the fascinating thing from a Christian perspective that I find is the more I dig into these things, I actually don't find more areas where I have control. I find more areas where I have less control, and I find more areas where I just need to rely on the grace of God to break in in my life and give me hope for today and for tomorrow. Rather than loving because I was told to love, loving because I was first loved. That's that's the framework for so much of this.

SPEAKER_03: 32:36

Yeah, I think um I mean one of one of the critical like issues in in our profession is like how do you actually convince someone to change? Or how do you create the um the desire on their part to make different choices, whether it's with their money or or you know, or or anything else. But and so where does, you know, what is that agent of change? And I think you said a couple of um a couple of things that I wanted to, you know, highlight. Like um one thing that I don't think helps is just like telling somebody what to do. And and um I think that's that's the trap that um those of us in a in a a role that is to counsel or to advise can fall into is well, oh it's just easy. You just need to do this, this, and this, and you'll you'll be fine. You'll um you're giving, you know, you're giving a list of you you're asking somebody, you're just telling them what to do. Um and most people don't it's not for not knowing what to do that they do these things. It's it's a deeper issue than just not knowing. Obviously, education's important, and I think that's a big reason why we have this podcast, is just to, you know, put put this basic stuff out here. But like Taylor said, like the technical stuff, at the end of the day, it's not that hard. It's actually how do you implement it? Um and then but the but as you're both saying, the bigger question of what's what's it all for? Boy, that's a hard thing for um It's a hard thing for a financial advisor to to to to say. I mean, that we're maybe straying into the into a different dimension here. But yeah, let's go there.

SPEAKER_01: 34:27

Go ahead. Well, I was just gonna say, like, I I think it it it is if you're looking for like big fancy words in the response, but rather like if I think you guys are asking these questions all the time when someone's like, I really want to save up this amount of money, or I really want to do this, simply asking the question of why and to what end. That's getting at that, like that's that's maybe it, maybe it'll take one more follow-up question to like really show that, like, hey, we're really talking about the spiritual here. We're talking about the the meaning and purpose of life when I'm getting at the answer of what's motivating you to have this like investment plan. Because I don't know that there's anybody out there that's like, I just really like the number 1.2 million. Like that's the answer.

SPEAKER_00: 35:18

What about why do you have a desire to plan in the first place?

unknown: 35:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 35:21

What's that about? That's a that's a human desire to, it's a lot about control. People don't like uncertainty, um, which I'm happy to talk about. People there's a humans have a desire for certainty, absolutely. Yeah. And planning makes them feel like that is. And that's I think this is where uh for better or worse, I'm probably I stand out a little uh amongst like your traditional advisor. Like I tell people every time, I'm not here to tell you what to think, it's just purely how to think. Um I don't care what you want out of life. Money's just a tool. We're gonna make everything's a trade-off. So it's like I don't do projections. Like if you meet with me, I'll never show you. Here's what it will look like. Because it's all it it's just fake certainty. And so like there's some, but I don't know, but like there's that underlying desire for certainty. Um I've I've got a hundred thoughts going through my mind of like, like, what do like why don't we just go there? Like, what do people want? Like we're okay, we're kind of dancing around it. Like, what is like a what is a good purpose for somebody to have? Like what should what should might be the wrong word, but like what should people be putting their money towards? Why are they what is the point of all this? You say, like, what you're optimizing to what end on the self-help side? What what what is a good answer to that? Like you say, what is this all for? What is the life you're trying to work towards?

SPEAKER_01: 36:32

What what do you think is a good answer? Yeah, I mean, the what is the answer for what is our meaning and purpose in life? I mean, you gotta begin with like, are do we believe in object like there's some objective, truthful, there's a there's some objective truth to that, that there is some good life, or is this purely a subjective thing where it's like Taylor, what Taylor, what is your answer to that question? Or Colin and Colin, what is your answer to that question? Um, because if it's purely subjective, then um it's like, well, we're following the kind of you do you model. And it's like, well, my my meaning and purpose in life is this, and it might be completely antithetical to yours. Mine is family, and yours is like um is like having sex with as many people as you'd like. Um, yours is, I mean, uh, like it it is uh it's going to as many baseball stadiums as I can. Like it is, and so it's hard. You got to think you have to begin with, are we beginning with subjective or objective truths here?

SPEAKER_00: 37:41

But it I think it's interesting that even the three examples you gave, there's an inherent right answer amongst those three. Family sex with as many people as you want are baseball stadiums.

SPEAKER_01: 37:50

So somebody will probably but I mean, if you're gonna think about it philosophically, that that like you would say, why? Like, why is family better than I mean, in that sense, you are sacrificing your own self-interest for that of someone else's. That seems like and if we're in if life is about the pursuit of happiness in our own self-interest, then like it doesn't take uh you you can create a scenario in which like the most personal satisfaction gratification makes a logical sense for what a good life looks like. Um I would I would disagree with that, and most cultures, philosophies, and religions would disagree with it. Um anyway, this is going down a rabbit hole that's a little like I don't think we've smoked enough pot for that conversation. Um let's let's talk about a little more practically. I mean, I think uh from my perspective, the answer to I mean, that is the question in so many ways. Like, what is the good life? What what is uh what is the meaning and purpose of our life? And I think that uh the I I've thought about this for um uh a fair amount of time. And it's the the easiest answer that I have um is Jesus' response to the Pharisees asking him of all 613 of the Mosaic Laws, which is his favorite. And by that, they're asked, they're really asking what's the most important? And they're trying to track, they're trying to trick him, they're trying to trap him into elevating one over another. Maybe he picks one in the Ten Commandments, maybe he doesn't. They're trying, they're always trying to get him in trouble. Um, but they're really also giving him an opportunity to say, like, what's the most important thing that we ought to do or ought not to do? And Jesus doesn't fall into the trap. He doesn't pick one over the other. He simply says, All the law and all the prophets, like the they they all hang on these two commandments, on these two summaries of the law that I'm about to give you. So Jesus takes all 613 laws of the Old Testament and he summarizes them into two. And he says, You are to love the Lord your God with all of your heart and all of your soul and all of your mind, and you are to love your neighbor with. As yourself. That is the meaning and the purpose of life. Now, a lot of people will get hung up on like, well, what does it mean to love God? Especially if I don't believe in God. I think the more practical one to, or practical is not the right word, the more helpful one to um, I think focus our conversation on is the love of neighbor part. I think that that is what we are made for. I think that Jesus is telling us that what is it that we are made for? Because if there is an answer to the question, what is the meaning and purpose of life? Another way of phrasing it is like, what are we made for? What were we put here for? Um, and I think uh in the Christian tradition, um, it's which is a rather like radical answer, actually, um, is to love our neighbor, um, to love sacrificially, and in fact, to do what often is the opposite of the pursuit of our self-interest and our self-gratification.

SPEAKER_03: 41:27

Yeah. I mean, I think we've all we've all seen um examples and counterexamples of of people, you know, pursuing the wrong, the quote unquote wrong thing or the things that don't ultimately satisfy. And I think you're right that like there there is something about pursuing uh, you know, purpose that comes from outside, you know, whether that's the neighbor or or or not, that actually brings more satisfaction. You know, we're we're coming up on Christmas and and like the idea of giving a gift versus receiving, it's always better to give. Um you feel more um satisfaction or uh gratification at like having given the perfect gift to somebody. You know, the thing, you know, not not just going on their Amazon list and getting them the things that they already said they wanted. Um, but like you actually find that perfect gift that that, you know, it's something they need, it's something they wouldn't do for themselves, it's it's like perfectly fits their personality, or that, or maybe it's like an experience that you'll get to share together. And like that is what brings joy and purpose, not like the you know, the accumulation of things or the gratification of self. Um I think that's that's I mean, that's there you know, I can't quote them, but there are empirical studies that that show that show that, um, for sure. Um I don't know. Yeah, what do you what do you think, Taylor?

SPEAKER_00: 43:06

I think the pursuit of the ha of happiness is like one of just a totally misguided, flawed thing. I don't know whether I'm missing the right words there. I think that's what sets people off. I think yes, the pursuit of happiness, the desire for happiness. Um happiness is temporary. Like what people generally think of as happiness is you know, kind of that dopamine short-term, I feel good. That's what a lot of people think of as happiness. And I think if you're chasing that, you'll never, you literally like biologically can't permanently have that. And um so as long as you're pursuing that, it's a flawed pursuit and you're never gonna reach it. Um and you look at like there's what, oh God, I'm gonna butcher the words, eudaimonic happiness and um I'm trying to sound fan. I'm forgetting my I wrote a thing up on this. Anyways, like in the moment, happiness versus long-term happiness. So like there's the eating of the donut, there's the you know short-term dopamine happiness, then there's the raising kids, not fun in the moment, long-term, very, very happy, you know, leads to more fulfillment. And I think it's just this obsession with short-term happiness, feel good now, remove pain, remove suffering. That is a like that's gonna, it's an impossible goal to reach. And I think that's what it sends people on this journey chasing something that they can't ever actually have.

SPEAKER_02: 44:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 44:28

Like I to me, it's very simple. Like you can talk about what is a worthy purpose, whether it's to love your neighbor. I love that. I my kind of definition, my like, is is to live well, and that's a super vague term, and there, but they I could talk about what that actually means to become your best self. I think those are the more fulfilling long-term things. But yeah, pursuit of happiness, removal of suffering. I I see it all the time around me, and it's a it's a you you'll never you'll never reach it. You'll never get it.

SPEAKER_01: 44:54

What do you do have some version of this conversation with your clients? Not all of them want to have it.

SPEAKER_00: 45:03

Yeah. Yeah. By nature, I kind of bring this out of people. Yeah. Talk about because like it's like why why do you like retire in five years? Why?

unknown: 45:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 45:13

Why do you want to go back to work? Why? Why do you work the job you do? Why? There's no rules to any of this. People think there's a rule. I have to do this, I have to do this. My wife's that way. She's the book follower, checklist follower. She's just the textbook the path. Why? Why you because most people aren't living with that intention. They haven't really designed their life. They just they fell into it, they did what they're supposed to do, and they're just here. And that makes me sad if that's not what they really want. And so trying to show people that there is another way, you don't have to live there, you don't have to drive there, you don't have to do any of the things you're doing. You all you made the choice to do it for some reason. Maybe you didn't consciously make it. So I love to try to pull that out of people.

SPEAKER_01: 45:48

Yeah, I mean, are you guys have you guys read Luke Burgess's book, Wanting, or familiar with that at all? Um, I mean, I think that's just we we so much of what we think we want is based on just like copying the people around us, the people in our own uh immediate circle or our sort of um class level. And um it's it's really it's it's interesting, um, it's relatable. It's also really sad. I mean, um, but I also think that one of the really interesting things here about um like there's the question of what are we made for? What is our purpose? Um, but all it is sometimes different from what are you searching for? Like, and I find that that's a really interesting question to kind of bring into this conversation when it comes to planning, when it comes to our relationships with money. Like, what is it that you're searching for? So, what is it that you're desire?

SPEAKER_00: 46:47

I think people are searching for what they're made for. I think somebody who's found what they're made for is not searching. I'm not searching in life. I'm incredibly blessed. I have a crystal clear purpose for why I live, why I do everything I do. I am not searching. I have no search. I have no desire to be loved by other people. I'm completely uh okay, that probably could dig into that one a little bit, but like I don't relate to that part. Like, I I am not searching on that.

SPEAKER_01: 47:15

So I don't know you that well, Taylor, but I'm calling bullshit pretty hard on you. Yeah, go. No, I would love for that. No, no, and I don't, and I mean that in the way that you know that I mean it. I mean it's it's that in some ways we are all like yes, I think that um there are different times in our lives where we feel closer to uh some contentment with our relationships, with our relationship with money, with our relationships with status. Uh, yeah, I'm maybe I'm not searching for something um in that in my career in those categories, but I think that regardless of what place we find ourselves in today, we are always searching for love. We are always searching for the experience of being loved and the feeling of being loved. Um, just because you're like, no, I've got a good, I've got a healthy wife, I've got a healthy relationship with my kids, like you don't stop needing that experience of love. You we we end up we end up looking for that. Uh that's why we that's why we read stories. That's why we read why that's why we we're always looking for these experiences of like of being drawn out of ourselves and into some other story. Because more often than not, it is like it is a story of that makes us feel alive. So we're searching to feel alive. I mean, I I think we're always searching um well, I shouldn't, I shouldn't say, I shouldn't say that, but I don't know. I guess I would just kind of push back on this idea that you're not searching for anything.

SPEAKER_00: 48:55

Would you like to I'm not searching for like for what I'm made for? I'm searching for ways to improve, be get better and better myself, be better at loving other people, be better at a hundred different things, but I'm not searching for my why. And that's yeah, that's unique. I understand. No, I'm very incredible. You'll look at my LinkedIn. I talk about like I'm incredibly grateful to have had a clear purpose. And one of my goals in life is to help other people find, find, define, and pursue their own. So I wasn't trying to come in here like I don't have it all figured out, but I I also am incredibly grateful for the experiences I've had in the last eight years that have led me to this place, to where, frankly, I don't struggle with some of the stuff we're talking about. Yeah. I mean to what would you say is something that we're talking about that you don't struggle with? Searching for why? The desire to be loved. I don't read self-help books for the same reason. I don't I the big uh the two of the the the okay, like the five why do you why do you read self-help books? Uh always learn something new. Um Why do you want to learn something new? To better myself. Because to me, like why do you why do you want to better yourself? Because I think that's part of human, that's part of living is becoming your best version of yourself. Do you feel do you feel how do you feel about who you are today? I am completely yeah, a lot to say there. Uh I accept who I am today, how I got here, what I the decisions I made that led me to here, um, and I have a ton to improve on.

SPEAKER_01: 50:17

Uh-huh. Why based on what?

SPEAKER_00: 50:21

My own analysis. Because I think to to to say the opposite, it would be incredibly naive to think that I have a completed project, that I'm perfect. There's no way I'm perfect. And I could tie, you know, we all like there's always things you can improve upon. But I'm completely secure in the flawed human being that I am today. The decisions that I've made in my past have led me to the situation I am today.

SPEAKER_03: 50:45

Yeah, I mean, I think I think um, I mean, uh to I don't want to to not beat around the bush, I think um, you know, what gives you that clarity and is the things that you've been through. And and if we talk about like what is an agent of change in somebody's life, like oftentimes it doesn't, it comes through suffering. It comes through having, you know, screwed up or hit bottom or gone through, you know, some have something taken from you.

SPEAKER_00: 51:22

Um, and that that is what uh, you know, can shape a purpose or a why or a, you know, and I also I also think that's why I revolt so much people who like your uh yes, pain and suffering is what made me who I am. And I think that's where uh why I push back when people seek to avoid it at all times. You know, a human body that never experiences stress, atrophies, and dies so quickly. Like this desire to just never have rough patches and never stress anything is flawed. And like really, like to me, like the biggest change is when the pain is so great that it's better to change. And you have to it's okay to go through that. It is freaking okay and human to go through that and to never want to have conflict and never want to struggle, to never fail, that's just flawed.

SPEAKER_01: 52:06

I think um, in in many ways, I think that is related to this false idea of self-reliance, of this idea that we can completely rely upon ourselves to avoid suffering. We can avoid, we I mean, we can rely on ourselves to create meaning and purpose and happiness. We can rely upon ourselves to create truth. Um, and uh more often than not, like one of the big influences of my life is the writer Flannery O'Connor. Um, and she's she's a short story writer. She writes these really often graphic stories of these like very hubristic characters who think that they have everything sort of figured out, and and ultimately what they're really believing in is just that they are they are um they're they're incredibly self-righteous, like comically self-righteous characters, where everyone reading it is like, oh my gosh, this grandmother of this guy is unbearable. Um, and then something, some, some version of suffering happens in their lives. And as she describes it in her stories, it is the expert's the violent and painful experience of being transformed and taken from a place of self-reliance to a place of self-awareness, of this idea. I mean, it's it's kind of similar to the like experience of entering into like a 12-step program of like of acknowledging that uh you are in need of. I can't tell what you're pointing to.

SPEAKER_00: 53:44

Alcoholics Anonymous is over my shoulder. 12 steps, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 53:46

Nice. Um big, big fan of AA. Um I think there's like that, there is some sort of something similar to what she's saying in her description of her stories, what I find to be a compelling description of the human condition. Um, there is this like painful recognition. I think as you just said at Taylor, of realizing like not changing would be more painful than uh than changing. Um and but it's also like a huge part of beginning that is recognizing that my life is not manageable as it is today on my own. And I'm in need of for some people, it's like I'm in need of Jesus specifically. For some people, it's simply the act of acknowledging that, like, hey, my name's Josh, and I'm an alcoholic. And shedding that light on it is the beginning of the transformation itself.

SPEAKER_00: 54:42

People need a higher power. Exactly. Yeah, that's I mean, step one is admitting your life that you were powerless and your life had become unmanageable. And step two is seeking a higher power. Now, I think the the beauty of AA, I'm gonna go completely off the rails here. Uh, AA is the greatest church I've ever attended in my life. I've seen more people come to Jesus through AA than I have in a church pew, real relationships. And the beauty of AA, it's an entirely Christian program written in the 30s. They don't talk about a Christian God anymore because they realize that turned people off. The number of people that start off with their higher power being a doorknob who ended up with their higher power as Jesus is unbelievable. And I think that's just fascinating. Um that yes, it is like the the higher power is it's like, yeah, the yes.

unknown: 55:24

Sorry.

SPEAKER_01: 55:24

One of the, I mean, it's I I couldn't agree with you more. It's it is this um, and I think there is something so powerful about the way that AA understands the human condition, which is I think one of the things that I'm really interested in in this conversation about faith and work, this conversation about self-help, this conversation about like when we're talking with our wealth management clients, how do we talk to them about change if we actually understand the human condition the way that AA understands the human condition, which, as you've said, Taylor, is really the way the Bible understands human condition. Because it says, like, well, actually, I think again, the problem is bigger than me. I'm in need of a higher power. I'm in need of acknowledging that I can't solve this problem on my own. And this is where, like, so for so much of my life, I've thought that because of, because of that, therefore, I'm gonna throw all of the, I'm gonna burn all the self-help books. But I think there is some throwing the baby out with the bathwater when you do that. Because, yes, um with a what I would say the big word would be like a Christian anthropology that is based on this exact same framework that you just described with AA Taylor, um, is this understanding that like self-reliance is a false gospel? It's a false understanding of the world. Self-help is self-reliance in a nutshell. Therefore, throw the baby out with the bathwater. Uh, but the reality is, is like, gosh, how many like how many of those people in the in an AA meeting on a Friday night or a Monday morning, like, those people know suffering really well. And those brought them also know those people also know they know the limits of their willpower, but they that doesn't stop them from desiring to improve. That doesn't stop them from desiring to love their neighbor, what and whether that neighbor is their literal neighbor or their wife that they haven't spoken to in three months.

SPEAKER_00: 57:39

I I have had this idea for an AH, a 12-step church, because alcohol is only mentioned one time in the 12 steps in step one, you've made your life have become powerless over alcohol. You could replace that with anything. Um, all the other steps are I'm powerless, my life's unmanageable, I need a higher power, I'm gonna do a fearless searching moral self-inventory of myself. I'm gonna share it with somebody else for accountability, and the cleansing effect of that is incredible. I'm going to make amends with people I've wronged, I'm gonna pass it on to others. Freaking beautiful.

SPEAKER_01: 58:09

It's called the Episcopal It's called the Episcopal Church in uh Charlottesville, Virginia, Taylor. There you go. I mean, so in all honesty, though, like as you said yourself, like there it's not a strange coincidence that AA sounds a lot like Christianity. It was a very good thing.

SPEAKER_00: 58:25

No, I mean that's Bill Wilson wrote the book, inspired by God. Like that's the true story behind it.

SPEAKER_01: 58:29

Yeah, and an Episcopal minister helped him write it. Like it and it was started in a up in New York, like there's Cleveland. There's really, really interesting. Um like when you say those things, it's it's you're you're describing confession, you're describing repentance, you're describing, and the the the real beauty of it is this realization that like there are a lot of non-Christians who need help when it comes to alcoholism. And if we can reach them to your point though, like it it is it's an incredible. Um I I we I think maybe we before we were recording this, I was talking about you were saying how um your love language is kind of pushing back on people. And I was like, hey, I'm I'm at the front of the line when it comes to making fun of my own church tradition. Yeah. And one of the things that I often say is like, you uh you will hear a better sermon in an AA meeting than you will in like 80% of the churches in the United States on any given Sunday. Like that is beyond a show. I that is so so, so true. But the most important part about that is is this understanding of the human condition. It is this understanding of the human condition that we can't simply will ourselves to change as much as we would like to. Um, the problem is bigger than we think it is. We are in need of acknowledging the fact that we can't uh and and and all these things we're going in circles a little bit here, but I think it's really interesting when it comes to uh this conversation about what is it that we're desiring, what is it that we're searching for, and also what is our purpose? Um I I I love wrestling with these questions with some of the students that I work with. I also love talking about it with people who are in a midlife crisis. And I also love talking about it with people who are trying to figure out retirement. I mean, what is it that we are here for? And I find that if the purpose of our lives, if if, if our why is has much at all to do with the satisfaction that we get from performing well or achieving something, that becomes extremely flawed. Um, that that is going to take us down a challenging place. And unfortunately, we live in such a conditional world in which that's kind of the only way that we see things. When you go on a UVA on a college campus, when you go to a career fair, it's like, hey, come and work here. That this is going to make you feel good. This is going to give you the most happiness. This is going to be the job that's going to get you the most likes on Instagram. I mean, on and on and on and on. Um, but one of the real beauties of matching this AA anthropology with what is it that we're really searching for, which is love and to feel like we're loved perfectly, even when we recognize our imperfections, is this recognition that we need our purpose, we need our identity to be something that we receive rather than achieve. It's not based on my performance. It's given to me truly as a gift. And then that ends up being actually the beginning of this cycle where we get to where uh Colin was pointing out in this season of Christmas, like that's where that gives us the hope of actually being the giver ourselves after we've, but you can't give something away if you haven't received it yet. And that's that's, I think, in many ways, the gospel. And it that's that's such a powerful central point of so many of these conversations that always has to come down to this gift of the gospel that is not conditioned on our performance. In fact, it's something that that is very important that we receive it, not achieve it. Uh I don't know. I want to talk more about Morgan Housel, but I'm guessing we're running out of time.

SPEAKER_03: 1:02:30

Yeah, I'm sitting I'm sitting here trying to think how we put a bow on this conversation. And there's not, there's no bow to put on it besides, you know, like acknowledging that um, as we've kind of said before, if you have that purpose or or at least are in a place where where um you you have had have experienced suffering or have um gone through life events that have have clarified what does and does not bring like lasting peace or joy, you know, not talking about the quick dopamine hits that that you know, money certainly can buy those um on any, you know, downtown street corner. But um but like if it you know, if you can have that purpose in in mind as the starting point, the rest of like how you manage money and and things like that, that just kind of is easy. What's really hard is the conversation we've are having today. How how do you get that purpose and and meaning? And there there are answers in in different faith traditions, there are answers um perhaps you know through through going through experiences. Um, but that I feel like that in some ways that's the whole point of life is to kind of figure out figure out what's it what is it all for. And then and then the the technical or or or you know the the what to invest in or how to manage how what insurance policies to buy kind of falls into place if you've got the purpose right first. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:04:10

I I think one of the things I really love about the the answer to the question of like, what is what is my purpose, what is my why? And the what in in my opinion is the sort of Christian answer to that is loving my neighbor is that it's not something that's subjective that changes. Um and when you have some sort of guiding truth that is an objective truth, it isn't dependent upon you or the circumstances, um, that gives me some real hope when I'm trying to think about what um some real like practical situations where I'm trying to figure out like what what career should I go after? How should I handle this business deal? How should I um structure this uh the this board that I'm setting up? How should I um think about my retirement? How should I like all of these different things? Um if if the if if my why is this like super subjective thing, then like, well, the answer to that question is going to be dependent on what my mood is that day or how much suffering I'm enduring. But if it's simply like, well, is this something that is leading to you loving your neighbor or putting you in a better position to do so? That might not always be the actual loving of your neighbor, sure not an easy thing to do. However, that being the framework for you thinking about like answering all those different questions, I find that to be really helpful. Um, I find it to be actually really practical. I find it to be really consistent. I find it to be something that's actually also really attractive to other people. Um Morgan Housel talks, here we go with Morgan Housel. I mean, I think he talks a lot about like, you know, you talk about like the eulogy virtues or the like it's not a it's not his own idea, it's the David Brooks idea of um resume virtues versus eulogy virtues, I think. Something like that. Yeah, that's a David Brooks thing. This this idea of like um, like what is it that you want to teach your kids? What is it like that's it's it's related to they're all tied up in this idea of love of neighbor, in my opinion. Of this idea of like, I what what matters the most to me is like spending time with my family. Um, because from biblically speaking, your neighbor everyone in the world is not you as your neighbor. Um, and so like all of these things are connected with loving my neighbor. The idea of like, how do I want my kids to uh interact with people, including me and their friends and their teachers? It's all about trying, and not from the point of like, you need to be this like leak legalistic, disciplinarian person who's saying, like, you better be a good kid or nobody's gonna like you. But it's like, this is kind of the point of life here, it's just trying to love. And it's never as easy as simply being told to do it and then just do it, like Colin said. But if we can kind of hold up this ideal, which we might call like the law, of like, this is the point of our lives, is to love one another. Um, and then you hold up the other objective truth of the gospel that you've already been loved perfectly in your imperfections and for given forgiveness and mercy and unconditional grace, that actually gives you hope for stepping into uh the fulfillment of that law, the fulfillment of the love in your life a whole lot more effectively than just being told that's what you're supposed to do and trying to do it yourself through optimization and through the reading of some self-help book or another. Because like it's just life is just really hard. Um, and doing the right thing as opposed to the wrong thing is sure, that's really, really hard. Um but you know what's not hard is um responding to love with um something that looks a little bit more loving today than it did yesterday.

SPEAKER_00: 1:08:07

I like that.

SPEAKER_01: 1:08:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 1:08:10

Gosh, I mean, we we could go on. And uh uh but we probably ought to sign off here and just um Josh, thank you for um coming on the podcast. Thank you for your openness and and turn your perspective. Yeah, definitely check out um if any of this has resonated with with the listeners, check out Josh's writings on on Cross Street on Substack. Um and and yeah, I'd just invite listeners to um you know go deeper than than than just the the tactics or the the um you know the techniques and the behavioral aspect into the these kind of bigger questions because um really if if um if we if we start with the bigger questions and have a clear purpose, um the the rest becomes a whole lot easier um in terms of of planning. Um so yeah, uh Josh, thank you.

SPEAKER_01: 1:09:10

And um the la the last thing I'll say is um uh Taylor, I don't remember if you were saying this in our pre-conversation or during the conversation, but like you've said, and maybe this is familiar with a lot of your listeners, you kept saying that money is a tool. And like that's Morgan Housel's writing is something that actually kind of showed that as a new kind of concept to me, which was really, really helpful. And I find it to be really um, as you're saying, Colin, like it you kind of need to have both of these things. Like you have to like in order to if we don't have the why, if we don't have the purpose, if we don't know what the meaning of all this is, well then it's really harder to it's it's kind of hard to see money as a tool at all because there's no end in mind. It's just like this kind of ladder that we're climbing. Or um, I don't I don't really know. I mean it's it's well, it's the measuring stick rather than the tool. I don't know. I hope you uh pay your editor a lot of money because there's been a lot of rambling going on on this podcast on my end.

SPEAKER_00: 1:10:15

Um but uh AI, baby, AI. It's unbelievable. I'm gonna click three buttons and this thing's gonna be done. It's incredible. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:10:25

Um well guys, thank you so much for having me. Um really enjoy uh the podcast experience with you today. Listen, I've enjoyed listening to it myself in the past. And I think as I've said at the beginning, I think you're both doing um some really amazing work. I think you're doing the work of loving your neighbor in a really wonderful way by helping them uh sleep through the night just a little bit better. That's that is um that is truly a gift um that both of you have. And um I am grateful that there are people like you out there doing this kind of work.

SPEAKER_00: 1:11:00

Thank you. Same to you. Your work's pretty important as well. Thanks for coming on, man. It's great to be here.

SPEAKER_01: 1:11:07

All right, guys. Uh take care and hope you have a Merry Christmas.

SPEAKER_03: 1:11:11

Yeah, same to you. Tiller, see you next time. See you next time. All right, see you.